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The Power Struggle: Interpreting Piccolo, Eastkaioshin, and Dabra
Topic Started: Nov 14 2011, 12:59 AM (967 Views)
Kruegs Outlandish
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Before Cell Games, 50% SSJ CG Goku is pretty powerful.

fighterrelations
SSJ (50%) Goku (Cell Games)
> A2SSJ Future Trunks

> Initial Perfect Cell (Weighted)

Piccolo (Cell Games)
~ SSJ (50%) Goku (Cell Games) (???)

Piccolo (25th Budokai)
> Piccolo (Cell Games)

Eastkaioshin
>> Piccolo (25th Budokai)

~ SSJ Vegeta/SSJ Future Trunks (Cell Games) (???)

~ SSJ (70%) Goku (Cell Games) (???)

~ SSJ (80%) Goku (Cell Games) (???)

~ SSJ (90%) Goku (Cell Games) (???)

~ SSJ Goku (Cell Games) (???)

Dabra (Pre-Majin)
>> Eastkaioshin

> SSJ Goku/Perfect Cell (at Goku)/SSJ Gohan (Cell Games) (???)

Dabra
> SSJ Gohan (Cell Games) (???)

> Perfect Cell (Full Power) (???)

> SSJ2 Gohan (25th Budokai) (???)

< SSJ2 Vegeta (???)

< SSJ2 Goku



So then Dabra is already, at least, Cell Games Goku/Cell/Gohan even before Babidi's Mind Control?


SSJ Half Power Goku

Everyone's reaction inferred that Goku's power up after RST was the strongest thing they have sensed. Future Trunks seemed particularly astonished even after fighting Cell, who had shown that he could have matched A1SSJ Future Trunks' power while fighting him.


Piccolo

Do you think he reached Goku's Cell Games half-power?

Take the following into account:
  • He received a manga power statement, which I doubt if he would have received if were merely at Semi-Perfect Cell power.

  • He was actually present to feel Goku's half-power.To go a step further, if the readers would believe Piccolo's hearing ability is like the Saiyan's Zenkai, always present despite being unmentioned, then Piccolo could have possibly listened in on Goku's conversation with Korin about Goku using only half strength and Cell being stronger regardless.

    If the above is so, then Piccolo's target power while going to RST would have been TWICE of what Goku showed if he wanted to even be productive during the Cell Games. If Piccolo is far less than 50% Goku then he would not have even made it to half of what he was aiming for; this may or may not have been the case.

  • Do you really believe that Piccolo's and Vegeta/Future Trunks powers were that far from one another? Vegeta was weaker then Piccolo pre-RST. Piccolo get stomped by weak Cell. Vegeta was stomping Semi-Perfect Cell after RST1. Goku shows off 50% power, then RST1 Piccolo gets a power statement from Goku. Give me this; why would Vegeta stomp Semi-Perfect Cell after RST1, and Piccolo, not so when Piccolo > Vegeta before either of their RST sessions? [imjusayin]
What's your opinion, and how would it effect the other relations? IMO, Buu Saga Piccolo > 50% of Cell Games Goku's power.


Eastkaioshin

Inferred in the manga, Eastkaioshin is dimensions above Piccolo in power. Where does this put him? Were Vegeta and Future Trunks "dimensions" above Piccolo at the Cell Games? Or maybe Goku's power is more adequate... ?


Dabra

So, yeah. Given the other above statements Dabra, even pre-Majin, is already, at the very least, near Cell Games SSJ Goku/Gohan in power. So Babidi's Mind Control should give him, at the very least, around SSJ Cell Games Gohan power.
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SSJ Ranulf
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I've only really thought about Piccolo for this one. As I remember, Goku never even hinted at Piccolo having a prayer against Cell, and Piccolo instantly said he didn't think he'd matter worth a crap against him. However, I have Piccolo getting something like 6x stronger after his time chamber trip. Considering I feel 1.5x = total pwnage, x6 would certainly warrant Goku being very, very impressed with Piccolo's power. Also, that increase isn't very far off from Vegeta, who I feel got most of his advantage over Semi-Perfect Cell through ASSJ.

I feel that East Kaioshin should totally blow Piccolo out of the water, in my opinion. I mean, I think Kaioshin should one-shot someone who destroys Piccolo.

I personally feel that Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura. This one has been debated to hell and back, so I'm would rather say agree to disagree with anyone on this issue.

I suppose the Majin-seal would give Dabura a considerable boost, but not a world changing one.

In terms of numbers, this is what I feel works well from my perspective (sorry if I'm posting to many numbers, but I really want to show my logic in all of this):

SSJ Vegeta: 58
Android 18: 83
Piccolo (with Kami): 100
Cell: 160
-Semi-Perfect: 400
--Full Power: 550
-Perfect: 725
--Powered Up: 1,800
---Power Weighted: 2,600
SSJ Vegeta: 450
-ASSJ Vegeta: 788
SSJ Trunks: 420
-ASSJ: 735
--USSJ: 2,200

MSSJ Goku: 2,500
-Full Power: 5,000
MSSJ Gohan: 6,500
SSJ Vegeta: 2,750
SSJ Trunks: 2,500
Piccolo (Cell Games): 600-700

Piccolo (Buu Saga): 700-800
Supreme Kai: 4,500-10,000
MSSJ Gohan: 4,355
-SSJ2: 21,775
Dabura: 15,000
-Majin: 23,500

Just a note: Vegeta got a little over a 7.7x bonus from his first trip to the ROSAT, and Piccolo gets from x6-7, which I feel is consistent.
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Victorious
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When was Perfect Cell ever "weighted"? lol

btw USSJ Vegeta is > initial Perfect Cell.
Victorious' fan made Dragon Ball Z Battle Power (Sentō-ryoku) list
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lunar2
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I'm going to back track a little for piccolo. when piccolo was ~ 1,500,000 @ frieza, goku's 3,000,000 was "beyond comprehension". i think this gives us a fair gauge for what to expect from kaioshin. he should be at least 2x as powerful as piccolo. now, on to dabura, since he is another key in this. dabura is stated to be "about as strong as cell" by goku. just for simplicity, I'm going to go ahead and say that this i referring to cell's full power, and not super perfect or any suppression state.

mssj goku (cell games): 100
Full power cell: 169
majin dabura: ~170

we don't know how much power dabura gained from the majin curse, but we know that even without it, he is significantly stronger than kaioshin. it's also implied that the curse itself was a significant boost for him.

so

dabura (normal): ~ 142
kaioshin: ~118
Piccolo (25th budokai): ~ 59

so, at the 25th budokai, piccolo is, at best, 59% of mssj goku (cell games). kaioshin is, at best, a bit stronger than cell games goku, normal dabura is a bit stronger than mssj kid gohan (who i have at 130), and majin dabura ~ perfect cell, as stated. having a weaker dabura (suppressed perfect cell) results in a weaker kaioshin and piccolo, while having a stronger dabura (super perfect cell) can result in a stronger kaioshin and piccolo.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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Victorious
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I honestly don't see how Dabura is even close to full power Perfect Cell

Dabura had a slight advantage on SSJ teen Gohan...and that's the highest power he ever showed. He didnt do any power ups or anything after that, or against Fat Buu.

MSSJ kid Gohan would demolish SSJ teen Gohan...and Full Power Perfect Cell should be way beyond even that.


Dabura would get wrecked by Perfect Cell's full power....two shots and he's gone.
Edited by Victorious, Nov 14 2011, 04:32 AM.
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lunar2
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well, it depends on your interpretation of gohan's form vs. dabura. he showed traits of both mssj and ssj2, and there is about equal background evidence in the way of logic, guidebook entries, and whatnot to support both interpretations. I go with ssj2, because i think it makes more sense in context, but i won't get into a big debate about it, because it's really not important to anyone except dabura, kaioshin, and piccolo, and THEY in turn, aren't important in terms of power either way.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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Kruegs Outlandish
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Why did Piccolo even go in RST, if he didn't think he'd be able to become even relatively strong (compared to everything he felt up to his RST)?

I could consider Piccolo and Vegeta have similar increases if Piccolo hadn't reunited with Kami, but considering his jump in power when training for the androids, it's possible that he could have grower stronger faster. Couple that with the fact that it took a few months for Vegeta to ascend Super Saiyan.

I'm just a stickler for having Piccolo at least strong enough to actually matter come Cell Games; otherwise, he would have been kicked around and stomped on like Krillin, Yamcha, etc. by the Juniors.
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Victorious
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Ohh yeah the whole "was Gohan an SSJ or SSJ2 against Dabura?" thing.

All i'll say is the art from the manga (and Japanese anime for that matter) clearly and plainly shows him to be drawn as an SSJ. And that should be the final word on that IMO.

The daiz contradicts itself and I don't even care what it really says .

Plus the plot and statements says he was likely only an SSJ against Dabura and Fat Buu as well. As when Buu's ball reaches full power Gohan notes Vegeta and Goku are fighting at "the level beyond Super Saiyan" kinda implying he was not.
Edited by Victorious, Nov 14 2011, 04:46 AM.
Victorious' fan made Dragon Ball Z Battle Power (Sentō-ryoku) list
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Kruegs Outlandish
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^ don't do that sh*t in this topic. Find a topic about it that's relatively fresh, or make a new one.

no SSJ/2 Gohan debates! Debate Piccolo all you want, though. He's the one who makes Eastkaioshin and Dabra strong anyways
Edited by Kruegs Outlandish, Nov 14 2011, 04:48 AM.
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Victorious
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Dude why are you talking about Piccolo? He's totally irrelevant in the Buu arc and he's fodder to the Saiyans in BASE. lol
Victorious' fan made Dragon Ball Z Battle Power (Sentō-ryoku) list
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Kruegs Outlandish
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Because the topic's partially about Piccolo.
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Victorious
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Base Goku/Vegeta/ Gohan >>> Piccolo in the Buu arc.
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lunar2
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Victorious
Nov 14 2011, 04:42 AM
Ohh yeah the whole "was Gohan an SSJ or SSJ2 against Dabura?" thing.

All i'll say is the art from the manga (and Japanese anime for that matter) clearly and plainly shows him to be drawn as an SSJ. And that should be the final word on that IMO.

The daiz contradicts itself and I don't even care what it really says .

Plus the plot and statements says he was likely only an SSJ against Dabura and Fat Buu as well. As when Buu's ball reaches full power Gohan notes Vegeta and Goku are fighting at "the level beyond Super Saiyan" kinda implying he was not.
like i said, I'm not going to get into another big debate about this. I'm just going to point out that even in the manga, it's not nearly as clear cut as you would expect.

example: gohan has mssj aura, but ssj2 hair. ssj2 had a long, thin bang, while mssj had a short, fat bang after the hairstyle change at the budokai. before the hairstyle change, mssj had 2 bangs, and ssj2 had 1. against dabura, gohan had a single long bang.

that was just an example, I'm not going to say anymore about this.

@ bizness. you can't make a dabura topic and expect to avoid this debate cropping up. dabura, along with a few other characters, such as broly, have built in debates that come with any discussion of those characters. if you don't want debates in your topic, don't post topics about those characters.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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Kruegs Outlandish
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lunar2
Nov 14 2011, 04:55 AM
@ bizness. you can't make a dabura topic and expect to avoid this debate cropping up. dabura, along with a few other characters, such as broly, have built in debates that come with any discussion of those characters. if you don't want debates in your topic, don't post topics about those characters.
Shouldn't be that way though. The topics about the relationship of these characters. And going from that to whether or not Gohan was SSJ or SSJ2 is off-topic especially when you have this relationship that can plainly determine how strong Dabra could be at least.

If he's at least, less than or equal to Suppressed Perfect Cell, then so be it. But any stronger, then he's obviously stronger than that and SSJ Gohan would not have had a chance.

Just don't drag the topic to hell's all.

and i'll still probably make topics about characters, and not want debates in them.
Edited by Kruegs Outlandish, Nov 14 2011, 05:05 AM.
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+ Pyrus
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If Piccolo's target was twice of what Goku showed, wouldn't that put him near Goku's 100% power...?

Besides, Piccolo only used the RoSaT once. If he could've gotten more powerful, I think he would've used it again, therefore I think he hit some kind of wall. It could also be argued he didn't use the RoSaT again because he knew even if he did, it wouldn't matter, but that'd be a hard argument I suppose.
Edited by Pyrus, Nov 14 2011, 05:42 AM.
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